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A Question of Fidelity: A Torchwood Explanation
A friend writes and asks me why I prefer Jack/Ianto over Jack/Gwen. I've really thought about it because the idea of "shipping" -- well, let's just say I found fandom by doing a random search in Google looking for information about the series. Slash --what's that? But from the beginning, I was fascinated by the Jack/Ianto dynamic.
Partly it has to do with the two actors playing beautifully off each other. Let's face it, John Barrowman ain't never going to win an Oscar (although God knows weirder things have happened on Oscar night!), and Gareth David-Lloyd shows promise but hasn't really earned his chops yet. BUT... when they are together, they are believable. They are open to each other, and they trust each other (the convention pics prove it, I think), and so make us believe in the characters' vulnerability to each other. They have created two beautiful, damaged people coping the best they can, and maybe falling for each other in the process. It just happened that it's two men, rather than a man and a woman. I don't get anywhere near a similar vibe from John and Eve. They work well together but the vibe between them has a certain degree of distance. The way they play Jack and Gwen, to paraphrase another fictional alien, "the having would not be nearly as satisfying as the wanting."
Partly it has to do with my "read" of Jack Harkness. When you first meet Jack, he's a conman and an intergalactic slut, and he makes no bones about it. But in his own way he has limits. You get the feeling that he would never have tried to come between the Doctor and Rose -- he loves and respects them both. Although he would be happy to jump into bed with either one, he wouldn't do it in a way that would hurt the other. In fact, his ideal would be jumping into bed with both of them. Jack may carve notches on his bedpost, but he does it honestly. And when Jack looks at Gwen, he also sees Rhys. And he sees Ianto, and he loves Ianto, and he knows how Ianto would feel. It's not that he's not tempted -- he's JACK -- but he sees the damage he can do to people he cares about. So he doesn't.
But mostly it has to do with my feelings about infidelity. NO. Sorry, NO. Hell, NO. I have never been able to understand those doomed passionate illicit affairs. If you love someone so madly that you would violate your marriage vows for him -- walk away. Honestly. If you look around and decide that, even though you love that someone, you would rather stay in your current relationship, then stay. Honestly. Don't try to have it both ways. I had issues about Gwen's affair with Owen, but I could understand it; and you get the feeling that it was a quick madness and it passed and she faced herself and chose. If she were to betray Rhys (her husband) and Ianto (a good friend and colleague) by carrying on with Jack, she would become something ugly.
Of course, since this is all fiction, your mileage may vary. Jack can be interpreted in a thousand different ways. You may feel differently about romantic love. You may believe in Madame Bovary. Me, she made me tired.
edited several times to try and make sense of it -- which means it probably doesn't.
Partly it has to do with the two actors playing beautifully off each other. Let's face it, John Barrowman ain't never going to win an Oscar (although God knows weirder things have happened on Oscar night!), and Gareth David-Lloyd shows promise but hasn't really earned his chops yet. BUT... when they are together, they are believable. They are open to each other, and they trust each other (the convention pics prove it, I think), and so make us believe in the characters' vulnerability to each other. They have created two beautiful, damaged people coping the best they can, and maybe falling for each other in the process. It just happened that it's two men, rather than a man and a woman. I don't get anywhere near a similar vibe from John and Eve. They work well together but the vibe between them has a certain degree of distance. The way they play Jack and Gwen, to paraphrase another fictional alien, "the having would not be nearly as satisfying as the wanting."
Partly it has to do with my "read" of Jack Harkness. When you first meet Jack, he's a conman and an intergalactic slut, and he makes no bones about it. But in his own way he has limits. You get the feeling that he would never have tried to come between the Doctor and Rose -- he loves and respects them both. Although he would be happy to jump into bed with either one, he wouldn't do it in a way that would hurt the other. In fact, his ideal would be jumping into bed with both of them. Jack may carve notches on his bedpost, but he does it honestly. And when Jack looks at Gwen, he also sees Rhys. And he sees Ianto, and he loves Ianto, and he knows how Ianto would feel. It's not that he's not tempted -- he's JACK -- but he sees the damage he can do to people he cares about. So he doesn't.
But mostly it has to do with my feelings about infidelity. NO. Sorry, NO. Hell, NO. I have never been able to understand those doomed passionate illicit affairs. If you love someone so madly that you would violate your marriage vows for him -- walk away. Honestly. If you look around and decide that, even though you love that someone, you would rather stay in your current relationship, then stay. Honestly. Don't try to have it both ways. I had issues about Gwen's affair with Owen, but I could understand it; and you get the feeling that it was a quick madness and it passed and she faced herself and chose. If she were to betray Rhys (her husband) and Ianto (a good friend and colleague) by carrying on with Jack, she would become something ugly.
Of course, since this is all fiction, your mileage may vary. Jack can be interpreted in a thousand different ways. You may feel differently about romantic love. You may believe in Madame Bovary. Me, she made me tired.
edited several times to try and make sense of it -- which means it probably doesn't.
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I too have issues with Gwen's affair, but then I have issues with Gwen period. (She strikes me as a Mary Sue, but that's another story.) And I do agree with your reasons as to why Jack wouldn't be with her.
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this!
when they are playing jack and gwen as partners (professional) or teacher/student or just friends - they are brilliant together
but when they are trying to have sexual tension... i just don't see it
in series 1, the sexual tension was there between gwen and owen (even though i'm not a fan of the pairing, it made sense) and never between jack and gwen (not even really in the gun range scene) especially not in s2 where it seemed so forced
i like your 'read' on jack - he always came across like that to me, too
i don't think he looks at sexual partners as conquests, like some, but as a way of connecting or just feeling good and making someone else feel good
i think he's always pushing gwen back toward rhys b/c he knows she'd be happier
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As far as Jack is concerned, I can't understand some of the interpretations of him as some sort of sex fiend with no moral sense. It's almost as if they were trying to read his 51st century morals through a 21st century filter. Odd.
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totally
it's like ppl took the line "a bit more flexible when it comes to danncing" to mean 'he's a giant SLUT who has to screw everything he meets, no matter the consequences' rather than how i always interpreted it as 'finds beauty and attraction whether male, female, alien, or whatever and does not hold prejudices against any'
the fact that he flirts with everyone is just jack being happy
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Jack/Ianto are believable, flawed but making it work, two people that deeply care about each other.
Gwen/Jack looks like a forced marriage or an 'we had to get married' type of relationship.
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Oh Christ bunnies are biting...
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"Rhys. Gwen's former partner called, um Andy. Said that he would be calling you." Ianto looked over the mussed husband of his teammate. It looked like both had been pulled from their beds but Ianto was used to quickly dressing while Rhys looked like he wore what he was sleeping in.
"So what did they do this time? Aliens invading the local pub?"
"Aaah, no aliens this time. Just the pub."
"Not again. Are they too old to be grounded? Can we do that?"
"That's a thought. We could sit the both of them in a corner until they learn to behave."
"Ianto! We will be old gray men before that happens. How much damage did Jack do to the pub?"
"None, it was Gwen this time. She wanted to prove to Jack that it was possible to juggle sushi while singing old show tunes."
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The Meat scene when they see Rhys and Jack holds Gwen back by pinning her to the wall is mostly about power. You have a similar emotional dynamic in Cyberwoman but much more energy.
JB and GDL play off each other well. They clearly trust each other in key scenes. Little looks and smiles say so much --- or do they? The ambiguity is part of the fun of the characters.
I've seen other shows where there was a designe male/female pairing going in that just fizzled because there was nothing to work with. Some things can be faked ... its called acting ... but some can't.
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John and Gareth just sizzle together even when they're just looking at each other; and that ambiguity is so... sexy. I've always felt that their interactions on conventions, etc. point to people who have developed a deep comfort and trust... and it shows when they are Jack and Ianto.
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I think the thing between Jack/Gwen isn't working out as the script writers might want, is also because obviously even the actors don't buy it. As the avitar of your own character you have unique perspective on the characters of the character and there are just things that you don't believe he/she would do, even the script said so. I believe the Jack/Gwen thing is one of them and JB and Eve are just NOT BUYING IT, so it translates onto their performances of those kind of scenes being less than believable. It's like the actors are saying in their own way, "they wrote the stupid script this way and we have to say and do these stupid things but this is just NOT HAPPENING, people, so there."
PS: "the having would not be nearly as satisfying as the wanting." -- Did you just quote SPOCK?! YOU SO DID!!!
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I think you're right. The actors seem to have problem portraying the "romance". When it's the friendship or the cheeky flirting... it comes across very well.
Don't know if this count as out of the topic but I can't help it:
I am new to the ST fandom but Captain Jack Harkness, USS Torchwood seem like a great idea...*hint hint*
Re: Don't know if this count as out of the topic but I can't help it:
Re: Don't know if this count as out of the topic but I can't help it:
Re: Don't know if this count as out of the topic but I can't help it:
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They do, they really do. I've always said that the reason I don't 'buy' Jack and Gwen as anything other than good friends is because whilst they have very good platonic chemistry, they don't have sexual chemistry.
'If she were to betray Rhys (her husband) and Ianto (a good friend and colleague) by carrying on with Jack, she would become something ugly.'
Yeah, if she did cheat on Rhys with Jack (or with anyone really) would be bad. I tend to see Gwen as being in love with the idea of Jack (i.e. someone who is chemistry mysterious and brings excitement to her life) and not necessarily Jack himself.
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I guess I've always believed better of Gwen than the TW writers do.
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Yeah, but than I really try to like Gwen, it's just that the way she's written makes that hard sometimes.
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Similarly they just didn't know what to do with Tosh at all and gave her weak story lines. I never really believed that she would escape to a trendy bar just because Gwen and Owen were being insensitive gits, I always saw her as the kind of character that would lick her wounds in private.
With the male characters however, they have believable story arcs and thus the relationships are more believable. Jack and Ianto are the only characters that I would believe as being a couple.
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Me too. I liked that storyline.
'As opposed to Mary, where it was "my workmates are gits and take me for granted, I think I'll go and drown my sorrows in a place that makes me feel distinctly uncomfortable and then go home with the first person that takes notice of me and will blatantly disregard all my Torchwood training!"'
Talk about changing a character to fit a plot.
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It's just a shame that they hadn't thought it through any further than than that.
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I understood Gwen's affair as part of her story arc as being overwhelmed by this new world she's walked into and making a bad choice. What I didn't like was her telling, then retconning Rhys.
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Also I do have the issue that if the leading man had gotten off with the leading lady I think it may have been a bit of a betrayal. I know a lot of gay men who watch, and absolutely love the J/I and the way it is portrayed is very important to them. None of my gay friends are fannish types at all, they simply love Torchwood. I have noticed some homophobia in comments from those who don't like the pairing and there is a very nice meta on that, by Crabby Lioness, where she identifies double standards and this view by some fans that the M/M relationship is sex only, whilst Jack waits for "the right woman"
I agree with your take on Jack, I think he has pushed Gwen toward Rhys from the first ep. I think your read of him is pretty accurate.
Anyhow sorry for writing a meta in comment to your meta! Off to read chapter 8 of your wonderful fairy fic.
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As for Jack/Ianto - well, I love the pairing. What I *don't* love is fandom trying to turn them into teenage girls. I know some people don't like the J/I dynamic, or don't see it the same way as I do, but hey, that's called having your own opinion and is OK as long as your interpretation is still believable and fits in with what we see onscreen (which teenage girl curtain fics don't).
And as for infidelity, I have a somewhat skewed view of it having been on both sides of the fence but I do believe you should never look to someone else *just* because you fancy them. Which brings me nicely back to Jack and Ianto - what they do seem to have in spades is trust and loyalty (though some might argue that point in view of Ianto's 'what soldier?' comment and Jack's 'striclty professional' reply in the Doctor Who ep; my interpretation of that is somewhat different *g*).
Another good example of actor and character chemistry is that of Adrian Paul (Duncan MacLeod) and Peter Wingfield (Methos) in Highlander: the Series - while many interpret the onscreen chemistry with slash goggles, that is one pairing I *don't* see! As for offscreen chemistry you only have to search out some of the pics/vids from conventions they have done together to get an idea.
You do realise you basically gave me a license to waffle, don't you?
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I see Jack and Ianto the same way you do. At bedrock, there is loyalty and respect. Which is why "my" Jack would never sleep with Gwen unless Ianto was sharing! Oh yes, and the teenage girl thing *shudder*. The greatest compliment I was ever paid was when a gay male friend told me "hey you've got two men there! Even in bed!"
As far as infidelity -- well, I have strong opinions. Not that I would go around branding scarlet letters on people -- old cuban saying, if you spit upwards, it'll land on your face (if you judge sooner or later you will be judging yourself for the same thing). What drives me bonkers is the "everything is justified by a great romance" tack some of the writers take -- as if Rhys and Ianto didn't exist. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because to me that turns Gwen into a whore and Jack into... something he's worked very hard not to be any longer.
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Absolute ust between Jack and Ianto even with their first scene together, while the first scene between Jack and Gwen is more "mysterious mystery" and "dear caught in headlight".
I'm mostly of two minds about Gwen, I like her but I also want to slap her. Mostly because I sorta identified with her at the beginning, and lets face it, only someone with the emotional capacity of a brick wouldn't find Jack attractive. What really pissed me off was that she after she cheated on Rhys, she confessed then retconned him. I'm sill trying to figure out why everyone thinks Gwen could lead Torchwood, unless in S3 she grows a lot more and I hope they actually follows through on all the lovely spoilers they're revealing, personally, I think she's a political suicide waiting to happen.
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I find it difficult to think Gwen could lead an organization, especially one who as far as we can tell from Doctor Who and flashbacks; doesn't play well with others and probably racked up some bad karma. Gwen is (1)stubborn (2)empathic (3)emotional to the point of wearing her heart on her sleeves (4)righteous (5)honest/frank/straightforward (6)thoughtless/undiplomatic. I can also see her as being easy to manipulate under certain circumstances, not doing something she considers wrong, but I bet a more malicious person could ask her for help to the point of burning herself out before swooping in for the kill or perhaps to get her say something she shouldn't. As I mentioned above, she's a political suicide waiting to happen.
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