Amen ...

James Moran, John, Gareth, Eve, etc, all did their jobs and like the outcome or not, they did them wonderfully. They do not deserve the personal attacks. As James said in his blog, question the work but not the man.

I look forward to many years of great work from Gareth ... and hope to see him at Hurricane Who this fall and tell him so. John will continue to entertain us in a variety of ways just by being John. I hope good things for Eve as well - especially a healthy baby later this year - and healing for Kai (who I also think we will be seeing around - he's got a great comic gift).

Like you, I've chosen to come at this postively. There is enough negative stuff in the world ... just click on CNN any minute of the day. I will be writing these characters for a long time to come because they have many stories to tell. I will support the actors any way I can and I will support the writers like James Moran, Phil Ford, and Joe Lidster.

RTD is dead to me ... I will never trust or invest emotionally in anything he creates again. I heard today he's officially living in LA now ... the Brits can have him back any time. Really.

As for the rest of the wonderful artists associated with Torchwood ... thank you and best of luck always. I'll be watching for you.

Exactly. Perfectly said. And as far as RTD is concerned, I think Auntie Beeb will be surprised about how much secondary income he will cost them... Me, I won't touch any Torchwood product, book, DVD, or anything unless it has Ianto in it. I think I'm not the only one.

what she said...sorry to do a copy on Teach, but I agree. everyone did the job the were given, including James Moran...
RTD however, enough said..

For my private part I am boycotting the series when it comes to BBC America. But that's to me is appropriate.

I didn't realize people were harrassing the writer, especially that said writer is not the one who has control over the detail of what was written (RTD approves or disapproves) and he needs his job and his income.

Yes, though I haven't been able to work up the energy to deal with this (actually I'm having more problems with Jack's daughter and grandson than Ianto's death - for that I really curse RTD - how can you destroy Jack's character like that???)

I am actually wondering if I can deal with watching Doctor Who when it comes around. Is RTD going inflict the final stab wound (I fear Jack may become the cause of The Doctor's regeneration) to Jack's character forever making him something else?

THAT is bothering me more. But I'm working it through. I know I will never trust a series by RTD again, ever.

But much agreement with you as far as TW concerned.

I have so many issues with CoE that it will take me a good long while to deal with them. And RTD -- no, he will always be someone from whose work I will shy.

yes! RTD is apparently moving to Hollywood now, and I have no desire to actually view any shows or movies he puts out. If someone I trust actually recs one to me, I will, but I'm not trusting him again. Not after CoE.

Trust? HAH!

yeah.. *snicker*
What kills me is that my boyfr. and a good friend of mine are still on series 2. So I'm constantly having to bite my tongue. Not that the COE ads help much since they give a big clue that it's just Ianto, Jack and Gwen involved in TW now. But yeah. I warned my friend M to stay away from the internets and be wary of facebook, if he didn't want spoilers, since he's waiting to view COE on BBC-America. The posters for it are splashed all over NYC.

If I'm angry at anyone right now about COE it's RTD and that's because I've heard from some very reliable people about his involvement in it. So I blame him for it all. Not the writers because if they have to follow the damned plot they're given, it's not their fault.

It has his stamp all over it, really. Like the Donna arc...

Don't even start on that. *sigh* I loved Donna. Next to Ian and Barbara and Susan, she is my favorite companion. And what happened to her was criminal.

People don't think before they post or send comments to real people. It's one reason I take my time writing my reactions to episodes. And don't post them anywhere but my journal. I feel bad for Moran - he certainly doesn't deserve what he's gotten. Part of the reason I'm glad I'm not going to SDCC is because I don't want to be anywhere near potential fan fallout with RTD there. But it's also one thing to post abusive thoughts on your journal, and another on his blog or twitter account. That's just wrong and invasive.

I know! Somehow they think it's ok to flame someone because he has given them a degree of access... Rude and pointless.

But you realize... it is likely that the same people who flame someone on own blog are the same people who act outrageously at cons and think they have a personal connection with actors/directors/writers, etc... simply because they have a minute conversation with them at an autograph line or meet & greet.

Probably. I attended two cons upteen years ago and decided they were not my cup of tea. Maybe some day... But it's like those people who think a celebrity is communicating personally with them when they make a speech in a crowded room. Creepy.

I think the key is to go with friends. I went to NY Comic Con this year and had a good time. Got series 2 dvds signed by Eve Myles and Euros Lyn (which is odd, b/c EL directed DW and not TW last year. but whatever. had enough to carry that day, wasn't bringing an extra set of dvds for him.) Also, NYCC is aimed at comics for the most part, so while there are some media celebrities or authors, the big thing are the comic books - and the writers and artists for them are really sweet and nice. I'm going to dragon*con this year, and am a bit nervous.

But yes, there are many people who are creepy. I remember from the LOTR fandom I was briefly involved with. Some of the people were nice but crazy. Really, really crazy.

LOTR fandom has a rep, or so I hear.

yeah... I don't regret my involvement (it wasn't with fic at all, b/c I don't read LOTR fic out of principle) and I met some really nice people, at least one of whom is still a close friend of mine. And I had some amazing experiences going to fan thrown oscar parties in LA. But my gods... there were a lot of delusional people there. In part, the cast and crew of LOTR were extremely generous with their time and extraordinarily nice about it all and went the extra effort. But there is a reason I left it all as soon as ROTK was over.

Geez Louise. TW fandom is so full of utter fuckwits.

To *hound* one of the most accessible writers, and a very pleasant man to boot, until he has to disappear OFF HIS OWN BLOG is the lowest of the low and completely out of order. He didn't even WRITE the fucking episode that's got their bleeding knickers in a twist.

Doing this should be unthinkable for someone who calls themselves a fan. What happened to respect?

I've been as upset as the next person about certain parts of CoE but you wouldn't have caught me even *thinking* about making some of the comments that other people did.

I always knew there were some batshit crazy fans, but I didn't think they'd stoop to this.

I'm sorry for swearing in your journal, but I'm really mega pissed off about this, and I'm not sober either.

'S all right. You're only saying what I feel at times. Yes, I am angry at the way Ianto's death was handled. Hell, I'm pissed a roomful of so-called television geniuses couldn't find a way to keep him alive when I can think of three off the top of my head. But attacking people over it?????

TW fandom is so full of utter fuckwits.

This is news? I mean... given what has happened in fandom in the last six months with the policing of what constitutes an acceptable fanfic, and what all... you're really that surprised?

I wish I wasn't sober... too bad i used the last of my juice - I don't drink vodka straight up. :(

You know, I'm very sheltered, because I only heard about it when Tanarian decided to go down... Not important enough, I guess. Thank God fasting!

I had heard rumblings in the past, but frankly? I was trying to finish my last semester of law school and take finals and prep for the bar and wasn't online very often so I didn't realize the extent of all this until Tanarian posted. Which still upsets me.

My fics aren't popular enough to get noticed very often. Which is probably a good thing as it saves me on head aches. But I did some checking my TARDIS Big Bang entry got singled out for bashing. It amused me greatly and the only aspect of it that upset me was that they said my beta didn't do her job. My beta is awesome and didn't deserve that, but I also don't take anything they say with a grain of salt.

Oh I've known that TW fandom is full of fuckwits for a while - it's the main reason I stopped watching most comms.

It's the persecuting of James Moran that has really got my goat as the guy was a fucking Jack/Ianto CHAMPION and even if he wasn't didn't deserve that.

Being a crossover fan and writer my stuff has always appealed to a smaller proportion of fans than more 'mainstream' stuff and I've never been bothered about writing the sort of thing that is 'acceptable'. I'll write what *I* want, not what people want to see - it's supposed to be an enjoyable fucking hobby, not a chore. Acceptable fanfic my arse.

Do you like pear cider? I have plenty left. And no, I'm not still drinking (it is nearly 6am) but I haven't sobered up yet.

*nods* I skim through most of the comms. Since I wasn't online for most of May and most of June and really, only started coming back on in the last week or so, I missed a lot. I think I came back just in time for the tail end of the Great Warnings debate.

and I completely get you on the crossover thing. You're one of the few authors I know who primarily writes crossovers, like me. Well, I would say my biggest projects are crossovers. I'm more comfortable writing them, b/c it lets me spread my love across fandoms.

haven't had pear cider in a while, but I'm quite fond of pear brandy. I'm out of my amaretto too, which sucks. I'm debating whether to buy more or just wait the month or so until I move into a new apt. Which, if I get the one I want is f*ing amazing. I'm probably just going to go and pick up a six pack of good belgian beer tomorrow.

*lurker pops in*
Sorry to pop in, but I wanted to comment.

Ya know in a way I'm glad I'm over here in USA because now I can avoid COE. I don't personally view authors as being AU now. I view them as slashers. Slashers in 99% of the fandoms have to ignore major things in cannon, the great thing about Torchwood was it was one of the few rare instances where WE were cannon and the het people were having to ignore stuff. That's what I mourn more than anything, since I'm used to having to ignore cannon facts.

I saw someone say that it seemed like RTD got rid of everyone that was more popular and/or overshadowed Gwen, and the more I think about it I think that might be true. It seemed everyone was either destroyed or killed and the only one remaining is Gwen (who didn't seem to lose anything from my understanding). I'd be willing to bet if there's a season 4 it takes place in the future with Gwen's child in the lead. Knowing my luck said grown child would be Jack's new interest -.- (that is if Jack is even there)

P.S. I just got current on your Homecoming verse and just wanted to say LOVE it.
*is wondering what is about COE posts that makes self leave lurkdom*

Thank you! *writer purrs like kitten at praise*

I think Gwen does lose -- she loses the big shiny dream, she loses two people she loves, she loses her innocence in many ways. But see, I like your idea -- Gwen's child in Torchwood... Or for that matter Ianto's niece and nephew...

lol...I don't know if I like the idea. Don't get me wrong I don't mind Gwen, I just find her...ummm...a bit naive and immature in many ways, but she does some good and has her uses. Then making season 4 all about her or all about her child? No, I don't know if I like that idea. If it's done well, maybe. But agreed next generation from the family members of the old would be interesting, I just don't want it to be the all about Gwen, or Gwen like child of Gwen show. From what I've heard RTD pretty much destroyed Ianto and Jack character wise, it almost seems like trying to make sure Gwen was in the spot light (to my understanding RTD is VERY fond of Gwen the character.)

Just seemed very convenient to me that "Oh she's pregnant and entire team is dead and Jack disappears". I said as soon as I heard the ending I'd lay odds if there was a Season 4 it'd take place at least 20-50 years in the future, then I thought about the pregnancy and it seemed to me RTD might be setting up for a new leader of Torchwood or something. I'm still holding out a faint hope that they bring Ianto back (hey if Stargate can bring people back from the dead why can't it be done in the Who/Torchwood verse?), I seriously doubt it'll happen, but hey it's scifi.

I have noticed that RTD is very fond of the nubile young things... I doubt Ianto is coming back, and at this point I wonder if I would want him to. A future Torchwood is an academic exercise to me as I don't think I would have any emotional involvement with it.

Edited 2009-07-13 11:04 am (UTC)

Here, here.
As upset as I was at the outcome of CoE, a personal attack on writers and actors is just out of the question (I lay blame at the feet of RTD anyway and like you say he just wouldn't give a toss about my opinion.)
I have been a fan of John since he first appeared on my tv 20 years ago in live and kicking (a childrens sat morning tv show)and will continue to be one. As for Gareth, he is what pulled me in to torchwood (I gave up the first time I watched it cos of Gwen.) and I will continue to watch his career with interest. I just hope the actors don't take to much stick at signings and conventions cos they will have been sworn to secrecy whether they liked the outcome of the story or not.
Anyway Jack and Ianto will live forever in my world.

Exactly. It's our world now.

One of my flist said the behaviour of the TW fandom made Supernatural fans look sane. I wouldn't go that far but Jesus, attacking the writers/creators directly just isn't on.

Edited 2009-07-13 08:16 am (UTC)

Also, and please don't take this the wrong way but TW was a lot saner before it got hijacked by certain Americans. This isn't meant to be American bashing because there are some lovely, lovely people out there (you definitely included) but it was a lot more restrained when it was confined mainly to Brits.

I'm on an American fandom now and can see the same extreme behaviour.

I am in the odd position of being an American who is a new immigrant and so one step removed.In many ways I look in from the outside.

Once Americans "fall for" something, they go overboard about everything in it. It's can be all about a contest between light and dark. It makes them very good at getting things done; that's how social causes move forward here, through passionate advocacy by a few committed people which then get the rest of us involved. BUT when it gets twisted into unthinking adoration all their energies go into making things go "their" way. And the contest becomes "us" and "them".

I left TW because of the way it was going and fell into a hugely batshit fandom. It's easier just to watch from the sidelines.

I've looked in on the Supernatural fandom and... goodness gracious. But this Moran thing is upsetting in many ways.

SPN is batshit but you kind of expect it.

'Ianto and Jack remain, any way you want them.'
Nicely put. Slashers in non-canon slash fandoms do it all the time, so why not us.

'But launching an all out internet attack on the writers or the actors? Jesus. That's taking all of this too far.'
I know, they were just doing their jobs.

'I am disappointed, and a bit pissed off, and I think RTD is a nihilist with the soul of a schoolyard bully, and I would want to tell him a thing or two, except that I don't think he would care about my opinion.'
After reading this article, I couldn't agree more. I doubt I'll watch anything else of his EVER because I'll always be thinking 'when is he going to get bored and kill the characters off and why should I care about them'.

', enjoy other people's experiments. But it is playing with fiction. With his talent, Gareth will go on to a good solid acting career. John will still be John and we will be enjoying his madness for years to come.'
Yeah, I'm excited to see what they do next.

RTD is scary in that he seems to be acting out some deep need to piss off people who actually like his work. How long he can keep it up away from Doctor Who it remains to be seen. I understand even the fans of QAF were left a bit less than happy.

That being said, I have a feeling that there is a gigantic "fuck you" to sundry people in CoE.You liked this? See what I can do to the fans. And maybe a they're my toys and you can't play with them to the people in the Whoverse who come after him. I mean, honestly, he has screwed with Whoverse canon. Shadow Proclamation, anyone?

Edited 2009-07-13 04:14 pm (UTC)

'RTD is scary in that he seems to be acting out some deep need to piss off people who actually like his work.'
Yeah, I think he really believes his own hype. He sacrifices drama for melodrama (at the expense of good writing) a little too much for my taste. I heard even John Barrowman wasn't happy with series 3.

That being said, I have a feeling that there is a gigantic "fuck you" to sundry people in CoE.You liked this? See what I can do to the fans.
Yep. He's always been very clear that he has noting but contempt for the fan; it likes to refer to us as Ming Mongs.

'And maybe a they're my toys and you can't play with them to the people in the Whoverse who come after him. I mean, honestly, he has screwed with Whoverse canon. Shadow Proclamation, anyone?'
It does feel like that doesn't. I've never seen Dr Who so I'll take your word for it.

Oh no! Now I feel guilty about what I posted! Although it never occurred to me to blame James for anything - I figured he had to go along with what had been determined as the story arc. My ire was directed purely at RTD. Did I go too far, though? I might fantasise about meeting RTD and demoralising him with a few trenchant comments but I know damn well but if the opportunity arose I would just mutter darkly under my breath. I have had the message 'you will be polite in public' dinned into me too thoroughly, I think.

I was enormously invested in Torchwood. Or rather the characters of Jack and Ianto. I would watch John and Gareth if they acted together again like a shot because they worked. I was a little surprised at just how devastated I felt when I learned that Ianto had been killed off. It's probably because I wrote the character and quite literally lived inside his skin and had done so for three years. It felt as if a part of me had been destroyed, which felt... odd.

I still don't think it was necessary to kill him off. Jack was already fated to kill his grandson so we have the tragic element in place. I'm betting RTD believed that Jack had to be completely destroyed for his own gameplan and I genuinely worry about what he has in store for Jack in the final DW special.

I'm glad he's gone to the US (although I feel deeply sorry for the American fans!) and a - very spiteful - part of me sort of hopes that he doesn't have it as easy as I think he believes it will be. I worry like hell that Gareth won't be able to continue with his career as I notice he hasn't flourished like the other actors in the series. I don't want to lose someone as talented as he is before I get every last wonderful acting gem out of him!

No, No, No!!! I don't remember what you posted as a personal attack; it was commentary based on your disappointment. I called RTD "a nihilist with the soul of a schoolyard bully", which wasn't exactly positive! I think that was what horrible was the personal attacks on Moran; he didn't deserve them.

And, like you, I worry a little about Gareth's career, but I think, on the whole, he might do very well. He's not as well known as either Eve or John, so he won't jump into another starring role, but I think he will slowly continue to build up a career. And with another stroke of luck, he might land in a good series and off he goes!

And didn't you know? Series 3 DID NOT HAPPEN.

Nicely voiced. Thanks!

No, thank you!