merucha | Stupid Behavior and I'm not Usually Stupid

Current Mood: aggravated

Entry tags:

anger

Stupid Behavior and I'm not Usually Stupid

I just went off on a post at Torch_Wood where a CoE fan calls people like me, who criticize the great talent of RTD, irrational and childish fist-shakers. I don't usually do things like this, but I just... where are these condescending, insulting people coming from? Am I the only one -- no I'm not, if your response to the meta post is anything to go by -- who thinks that good characters and a good story makes for good television and refuse to lick the toes of anyone who doesn't provide it? Is it really such a childish thing to expect what I'm promised?

I was willing to overlook all the stupid discontinuities, silly plot twists, and annoying inconsistencies of Torchwood because the characters were appealing -- even Saint Gwen most of the time. I loved them all. I was prepared to lose some; considering the set up, it was unlikely to think Torchwood would be blood-free. But I did expect that they would die with dignity and grace and they would be treated with respect. And once in a while, one of the writers would get it right and it all came together and it was GLORIOUS. But CoE destroyed all of that; all the trust I had put on the creators that they would respect their own creation.

Look. RTD doesn't owe me anything. But I owe him exactly the same. I have followed writers whose work has descended into Mary-Sueism and have dumped them without a qualm. They're still best sellers, just not on my dime. RTD will go on having his fanboys and fangirls who will cheer every contrived, second-hand, cheap-emotion-in-place-of-real-effort work he puts out. I'm not one of them. And good luck to him. I wish no evil on anyone, preferring to let karma work its magic.

But I will NOT be told to sit down and shut up. Screw that.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Good for you.

I am learning this also in fandom and the people who are at the alter of one person or another.

Oh yes Karma is bitch and hopefully it bites some people hard in the ass.

That's the part that keeps me looking at fandom in a sorta-kinda way. Maybe because I tend to think of the stories and the characters first, rather than the actors and the producers? I don't have it in me to worship at another human being's altar.

I don't have it in me to worship at another human being's altar.

I used to do it at the Alter of da Barrowman, but now I stopped drinking the Kool-aid and he see him as a human not some object to swoon over like some fans do. And b.c of this I have had my ass chewed out by his fans b.c I said something negative/sarcastic in some way.

So maybe I should learn to keep my mouth shut and use the delete button before I post something sarcastic. Will I learn probably not but I try.

So, I have stepped back and watch from a distance.

Well, I love John and swoon over him but when it comes to human beings, de gustibus non disputandum. You to yours and me to mine. I do try not to get into it over people. How can you do that?

You to yours and me to mine.
Amen

Seriously, I love JB but now my rapid fangirl is in check. Hopefully for a bit.

I do try not to get into it over people. How can you do that?
True.

Maybe B.c the individual likes to instigate stuff and create fan's discussion.

They might also like to tear into the psyche of the actor/athlete and make you question why do you like this person.

I am probably not making any sense but I am trying to. This is one reason I try not to reply to Meta's because I know in the end I will end up tongue tied and not making any type of point.

IE: here. I try and therefore fail.

Edited 2009-07-29 05:44 (UTC)

It's been kind of interesting - in a purely academic sense - to see how people are reacting to various fan reactions to COE. To hazard a guess, I imagine some in the fandom are embarrassed by the initial backlash against Moran and RTD in the first few days of episode 4. The Moran situation was nasty and people definitely overreacted towards him. So then we had the people who attempted (and did) act in a mature manner and try and show that not everyone in fandom is crazy.

Why this now extends to RTD is a mystery. It could be that the ones who are criticizing those who criticized RTD are doing so because they believe (not that this is true) that the reasons to criticize RTD are childish and not well thought out and are the product of crazies. A lot of the people screaming about what happened in COE and then about RTD aren't using the most cogent arguments.

The person who posted their thoughts clearly thinks RTD can do no wrong. It is a fallacy to believe that just because the initial set up is good, the creator will continue to guide their creation in a manner that doesn't invoke criticism. As much as I love BSG, I am so angry at Ronald D. Moore about the travesty that he let the latter half of the series fall into that I won't watch another one of his shows. I was heavily invested in the characters and their relationships and they spit on them towards the end. Similarly, RTD took my love for a show that had interesting characters and was interesting sci fi and ruined it. And I blame him because he has claimed responsibility for Children Of Earth.

It could be that the ones who are criticizing those who criticized RTD are doing so because they believe (not that this is true) that the reasons to criticize RTD are childish and not well thought out and are the product of crazies. A lot of the people screaming about what happened in COE and then about RTD aren't using the most cogent arguments.

I thought that at first, but I'm getting the vibe of the pseudo-sophisticate about some of them. Those people really annoy me. They're the ones who prattle on about "real life" as if it was some kind of sign of superiority that their idea of real life is one of irrational, brutal, meaningless, and painful existence, and therefore fiction should also be that way.

Edited 2009-07-29 04:49 (UTC)

People like edgy. By and large, most tv shows don't kill off their main characters. At least US shows don't and especially in sci fi. I mean, in Stargate, they killed Daniel, but he hung around as an ascended for a season before returning. The only major side character killed off in the show was Janet. I guess you could also consider Jacob/Selmac as well. And that was in 10 seasons + 2 tv movies. SGA suffered from the same thing; in 5 seasons, they killed Carson and then brought him back as a clone, Ford od'ed on wraith enzyme and disappeared in the mists of Pegasus (it is assumed he's dead, but they never confirm it.) and Elizabeth became a replicator who they then deactivated (because the actress wanted to leave, in part because she didn't like how the producers treated her.) Everyone else lives, despite the danger they supposedly get into. '

In Farscape, they killed one of the main team in season 2? or 3 - can't remember exactly. And in the Peacekeeper Wars, they killed another major character. But Farscape was always willing to go to the edge - they tortured John in the four seasons + 1 miniseries it aired. I can't remember if they ever killed any of the main characters in B5 besides Marcus. Yeah, the commander dies at the end, but that's the end, and was expected since they spelled it out in earlier seasons he would.

Anyway, my point is that I think these people who are making these pseudo-intellectual arguments are thinking that b/c TW kills their characters, it is edgy and more real simply b/c of that, rather than taking a look at the whole product and realizing that just b/c a character is killed doesn't necessarily make it good tv, or even edgy.

Anyway, my point is that I think these people who are making these pseudo-intellectual arguments are thinking that b/c TW kills their characters, it is edgy and more real simply b/c of that, rather than taking a look at the whole product and realizing that just b/c a character is killed doesn't necessarily make it good tv, or even edgy.

THIS. There is a right way and a wrong way to kill off main or even psuedo-main characters. Whedon has done it. Others have done it. And yes, a lot of backlash right after CoE was not thought out and visceral. But we're not all like that; we aren't necessarily rabid morons just because we're angry.

Oh, I agree on your points completely. A good writer makes sure that whatever happens to the character and the plot makes sense. COE didn't, and fans have a right to be upset b/c of that. It doesn't mean we're rabid morons, as you say; rather, it just means we like good tv, good writing and have discerning taste. :)

*lurker pops in*
Why don't you know you're suppose to acccept Ianto and Jack descending into darkness, because they're not that important, and fall in love with Gwen all over again and not NEED Jack and/or Ianto? Who needs Jack and Ianto when you have Gwen?

I still contend that this was just a set up to the all-Gwen Torchwood (which is fine for some fans but not me). I'm not even convinced at this time they'll have Jack/John back.

I don't even know at this point if JACK will survive. Supposedly Moffat doesn't want to use any of RTD's characters, and the cast list for the last Tennant special... ho boy.

Well Jack can always be somewhere random in the universe doing something.

Well if Gwen isn't involved then there might be hope for a season 4 IMO.

When you live in the SPN fandom where any view you express is met with nasty, puerile derision (did you know it is actually acceptable in the eyes of the tinhats to ask to have the girlfriend of one of the stars thrown out of a Con just for being there), you quickly learn to shut up.

Good golly. That's... really insane. I can see why discretion is the ONLY form of valour if you want to just enjoy the show and do your thing.

I'm too old in fandom. I can only point to Star Trek.... the original Star Trek. Three seasons, developed characters. So...what did they do for the last episode? Did Roddenberry kill off main characters? Make them who they weren't? Cause this really "push the envelope" moment? Nope. They had (for the time) a bit of a push the edge moment (the discussion of women's roles and women's resentment of the time... it was 1969). But the show found resolution and ended...

It took decades of fanfic and fan influence to develop the characters and some did die (old age... so much later... even Spock lives now).

The "Karma" that will find RTD will be that a decade from now Torchwood will be gone. Oh sure some will remember... but mostly no one will care.

In light of the most recent movie can one say the same of Star Trek?

I was VERY upset by what was done. But I know how fandom can be. There are those who understand and love what RTD did, or who would like to think they do. There are those who want to throw him under a bus. Sigh... I decided not to watch COE, not even once (promise... haven't even glimsed a scene). It is the best protest I can do because RTD will do what RTD will do and no, he doesn't care. But then his work will show it.

Roddenberry's work shows his love for his fans, his respect for their creativity... judge for yourself. Me? I HAVE read all the Spoilers I can read to get the gist of the episodes. AND I have researched to get pictures of Jack's daughter and grandson. I'll have a use for them, a kinder use. But given Real Life can't say when the writing bug will come back... writing this is a big deal.

But for those who can, please keep writing Seasons 1 and 2. Make Tosh and Owne live and develop. The 21st Century is where everything changes and Torchwood employees do live, do love and do reproduce. Thanks.

I hope you will return because I love your work. You are willing to take chances that most people wouldn't. I miss it.

I differ a little from your idea of karma. I think his karma will be "he coulda been a contender." I think there's enough of a fan base for the "real" Torchwood that it will become one of those cult things every generation goes back to for a little while. But you're right in that there's not going to be the legenday status that accrues to ST. But what do I know? Karma disposes, and HER idea of judgment is often not ours. Maybe his karma will be to drown in adulation while all the time knowing, and being eaten by, his own shortcomings at 3 am when you cannot lie to yourself.

Me, I'm going to keep on writing. My AUs always start from the end of season 2 anyway. I might do one from the beginning of Season One. We'll see. But no more arguing with people. Not good for the blood pressure or the karma.

Edited 2009-07-29 13:11 (UTC)

*butts in* Hi Asa! I miss you! And we'll keep writing--Series 1 and 2 and fixits for Season 3. And Series 4 and on.

~~~But I will NOT be told to sit down and shut up. Screw that.

Dang, I was just going to send you a PM to tell you this but I guess that I can't now. There goes my plans for this morning. I suppose I better go with Plan B and write fluffy smut for Jack and Ianto.

Hopefully, you will sit down and keep writing.

I'm writing, I'm writing!

I have to agree with you ... to the point where I've taken some Comms off my flist until this dies down. It will die down ... and people will either move forward with the new "version" of TW, continue to enjoy the fic created that reflects the TW many of us came to love, or leave the fandom. However, I think for everyone that leaves new people will come in. I've seen numerous posts over the past few weeks from people who enjoyed the j/i canon pairing and now that its not an option, they are coming to fan fic to find it (which is how slash came to be anyway).

The fact is, we are all entitled to our opinion. Did I like COE? No. The reasons are many, but for the most part its because I do prefer character driven story telling and those characters went by the names and appearances of characters I'd come to love, but they weren't those characters. Some of the issues raised in COE and some of the characters - like Alice - provide wonderful fic opportunities.

I was embarassed not just from a fandom perspective but from a human perspective with what happened with James Moran, but he made himself accessible and a target in some ways. He put all his eggs in the RTD basket. That was either going to be a brilliant move OR backfire. It backfired.

RTD ... well, he's never been a favorite of mine. He has his moments of brilliance, but . . .

When everything hit the proverbial fan, I was angry with him on many levels. His comments in the weeks since have done little to change my opinion, except on one score. That anger is now mixed with pity thanks to a friend who is not a TW fan but who I was getting into the series in preparation for series 3 (she does love James Martsters).

When COE aired in the UK, I told her about the plot and the outcomes. I don't like to spoil, but I did not want her watching something that would upset her greatly. Her response "how unhappy does someone have to be to come up with that?" made me stop. I re-read some of RTD's comments and something clicked ... its like when you read Poe even without knowing his history you know that had to be a sad, sad man. I'm getting that feeling now.

Edited 2009-07-29 16:09 (UTC)

You know, maybe your friend has something. I've been thinking about the power dynamics in his love stories, and they are sometimes downright perverse. Not exactly what a happy person would come up with... But there's something of the "Me smash".. yes, an unhappy adolescent.

'But I will NOT be told to sit down and shut up. Screw that.'
This!

'RTD will go on having his fanboys and fangirls who will cheer every contrived, second-hand, cheap-emotion-in-place-of-real-effort work he puts out. I'm not one of them.'
Me neither, but than I've never thought he was that great of a writer. I left shows for much less than the horrible, badly written death of a character I like. RTD has made it very clear that my viewership is not the kind he wants. I hope he's happy with his casual fans; the ones who wouldn't even remember what Torchwood is if there is a hiatus of 14-months between series 3 and 4.

I think I will always be grateful to him for bringing back Doctor Who with such success. On the other hand, somebody should gently tell him his plotting leaves a great deal to be desired... And yes, I'm sure he will love it when something goes wrong and there's nobody there to carry him through... like we carried the first season of Torchwood, because, honey, the critics were murder...

'And yes, I'm sure he will love it when something goes wrong and there's nobody there to carry him through... like we carried the first season of Torchwood, because, honey, the critics were murder...'
Yep. It'll be interesting to see the rating numbers for series 4. I've heard that Eve wants to take about a year off for her baby, so I have to wonder how many casual fans will be back after such a long wait.

*applauds* I just found out about this "fist shakers" nonsense from veronicaluv, whose work I love. I'm not going to be posting to torch_wood anymore. It's just silly if they're going to be rtd_wood and only support him. I thought differing opinions shared articulately was the hallmark of an intelligent society/group. Shows what the hell I know.

And you know what? I'm a Whedon fan from way back. And I haven't always approved of his writing decisions in some aspects. But you know what? When the people who watched his show and bought the related merchandise (read: paid his salary) called him on his bullshit, he was respectful in his disagreement and always willing to tell you where it was coming from. I may not have always changed my opinion after, but I always respected the discourse.

I can't enjoy something put out by someone I don't respect. It's the same reason I won't be watching pro football (American) this season; and I LOVE football. But they reinstated Pacman Jones (previously) and Michael Vick (this season) and I CANNOT respect those decisions.

So, yes, I am a fan of Torchwood. That means I'm allowed to say that Countrycide is a brilliant piece of horror and I can say the Eugene Jones episode gets skipped during every marathon. I can say that GDL made Ianto Jones come alive and deserves most of the credit for the success of that character. I can also say that Tom Price must be a phenomenal actor because he is, by all accounts, a wonderful man and yet Andy Davidson makes me want to kick in my television and/or throttle my iPod. I can say these things because I am a fan; I am an intelligent, articulate person who has the right to her opinion and free speech and the right to defend what I say. You don't have to agree with me, but don't you dare tell me to shut the hell up.

*climbs down off soap box and apologizes to Emma for hijacking her comments. Again.*

Please do. My "depart from accepted wisdom" fave is Out of the Rain. I like creepy stories that do not have a lot of blood and gore in them, and that surely qualified. Most people hated it. I also found Small Worlds to be creepy as all heck (hey it spawned one of my fics!). That one seems more liked.

And we'll agree to disagree on Andy. If you've looked at my fics lately there's an Andy love fest going on... of course, he is a very different Andy!

Hey, I love your Andy because he is a different Andy. The show Andy is everything I hate about Gwen magnified to the nth degree. It makes me want to scream.

Your Andy, however, I'd take in the Hub any day. Same with tanarian's Andy. There are some authors who write an Andy that I can tolerate and/or even like. None of those authors write for the show.

My sister hates Small Worlds because of the whole "faeries are evil". I love it because of the character development of Jack and Ianto (separately, not as a couple).

Oh, I've reserved front row seats, with popcorn and drinks, for when Karma hits... Wanna join?

Well, I don't know. I've been told to always expect the unexpected from karma... Got any diet Pepsi?:D

*rummages through supplies* I think there is some over there at the back... Else we'll order some! :)

And yeah, the unexpected will do me. I just want to witness it! :)

I'll bring Diet Pepsi for all if I can get one of those seats!

Sure. The more, the merrier. Well, sort of. Not a very merry party at the moment, but... at least we can wallow in the debacle that was CoE together...

M&Ms, anybody? *passes bag around*

Ooo...M&Ms. *takes some* Jelly babies, anybody?

Oh yes, please! *grabs some* Thank you! Who's got the popcorn?

Oo! I brought that. And nacho cheese to dip it in. Which I know sounds gross and I thought it was until I tried it at the movies once.

LOL I like popcorn and icecream. All at once LOL So... *shrugs* I gave up telling people what they eat is gross hehe Something about pot, kettle, black, they used to tell me

i have said before i say it again love your mission statement.
having just read this post and the one before i could cheer. agree about the some the main lists taking on the feel of some strange cult that if you question the wisdom of rtd you are in danger of the choosen ones throwing you into the fires of doom.
just because i watch sci fi doesn't mean i have to give up iq points or the ability to think or ask questions. those who disliked or(loathed in my case) have just as much right to voice their opinions as those thought it was the greatest drama ever written.
as for the karma bitting one on the butt, i can bring polka dot coookies(choclate chips, cherries, nuts op.) for the entire class.

Cookies sound good! But let's not all yet celebrate... I'm superstitious...

I don't know why those RTD supporters are so defensive...unless they KNOW they are in the minority and feel they must blindly defend their idol to the death. We are all just stating our own opinions and I don't see us running off to their posts and calling names. We're just have respectful discussions on the points of the story.

I think the first explosion of anger was overboard, but it was justifiably overboard in a sense; the fans had been promised "we would be happy about the relationship" and we got "you should be happy that you saw how much Jack and Ianto loved each other right before they get poisoned and die", which IMHO is not the same thing. And the reaction to poor Moran was horrific.BUT:

From some of the comments I've read, it seems that this piece of dreck, because it was full of dying people and bad government conspiracies, makes Torchwood "real drama." You know, I would have understood if it were good. But it is nonsense.

Edited 2009-07-30 01:25 (UTC)

My opinion is totally in sync with yours. We were promised something totally different from what we received and they are surprised by fan reaction. I guess I was expecting intelligence in them that doesn't exist. At least I can finally laugh at what fools they sound like defending themselves in interviews.

Never be afraid to tackle people or defend what you think right on this issue. Sidetracking the debate to other issues like poor author/he's the creator is a defense tactic that shows they are on the ropes and starting to attempt damage control. If BBCA were to drop RTD as being too controversial, that'd be fine by me.

See, I don't even do that. I think he deserves to keep going. People who think they have never made a mistake usually fall flat on their asses at some point. God willing, it'll teach him some humility and respect for others...

Just here to read the next Fallout and saw this. I wish I'd seen the post you refer to, mind I probably commented on it, I'm getting confused with them all. It does astonish me that there is this attitude emerging that those who aren't happy about CoE are stupid and only in it for the pretty boys. Probably never read poetry either. I am astonished by the fans who are coming close to RTD in their level of dismissiveness toward their fellow fans.

Thing is in real life I have family and close friends in the telly and film business, and have met a lot of "people" socially. I really don't get why anyone wants to stroke someone else's ego, these are ordinary people, and often not especially interesting. Also, the ones who get sucked up to constantly and have the arse lickers fawning about them, well they become self obsessed and very very dull. The ones who don't let that happen, they have more chance of remaining nice, and normal. One of my friends, very successful writer and telly/radio performer, talks about colleagues who get the "whiff of Hollywood about them (not a good thing) Believe me RTD will not give a toss about fans agreeing with him, and putting down the other fans. He will be equally dismissive. It gets them nowhere.

I think a lot of fans want to be seen as more than "sci-fi geeks" by so-called normal people and plump for "this is GREAT DRAMA!" so as to point to it and say, "see, see, it's not just geek stuff, it's GREAT DRAMA!". Silly.

And RTD doesn't give a rip about anything but his ego. Good luck to him, but I don't want his karma.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Stupid Behavior and I'm not Usually Stupid

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject