Well said ...

I've always thought JB did as much with the crap given him many times as is humanly possible ... he really doesn't get the chops for that as an actor that he should.

I felt most here for DT - he really deserved a more fitting send off for his brilliant Doctor.

I do tend to think seeing the bar scene as a calculated dismissal gives a certain man too much credit. For one, it was written and filmed before COE aired (and I don't think RTD has the perceptive ability to understand how intensely people would react to that - JB knew I believe). For another, you would have to assume RTD actually thought about what he was doing.

The thing about RTD is he is a lazy writer ... prolific and successful does not equate to not lazy. I doubt he "thought" much about those goodbyes at all (He had a list, he had an idea, he wrote the scene, and he crossed it off the list). He probably never asked himself "how does that work for continuity, perception, etc." That takes introspection and revision. I don't think he worries much about either.

Look at Martha and Mickey. She was engaged before she met Mickey. How did they get there? I'm sure its a compelling story - or could be. May be (oh fuck - down bunnies). He had two characters he needed to deal with so he did in one swoop - easily crossing them off the list. He crossed Jack off, too.

I agree the character of Jack has never meant much to RTD - he didn't create him after all. Moffat did. I think he resents the hell out of the fact that Jack is more popular than characters he did create (Rose, Gwen, etc). I can't also help but wonder if JB being so comfortable in his own skin isn't another factor. That may be why he tortures him gratuitously and tried to make fans hate him by the end of COE. RTD in contrast seems so unhappy with who he is. He would have to be to find things like he does on screne entertaining. To turn a phrase, he really isn't bigger on the inside. The more I learn about him, the sadder it makes me for him.

As for Jack moving on - all for it. I like that our current final image of Jack is not that broken man at the end of COE - that gutted me almost as much as the loss of Ianto (I can't watch either of those scenes). I want to see that character around for a long time - maybe in the hands of someone who will develop the massive/untapped potential that is Jack Harkness.

I will continue to write Jack/Ianto because its not simply about two men as you say - its about these two men. There are other male/male pairings I can't handle and others I love - just like there are het and f/f pairings I both love and hate.

As long as people - be it a half dozen or a hundred - are reading - I will write.

The fandom will do what it will do. The key is going to be for everyone to respect each other - writing J/A fic is no more wrong than J/I fic. It's going to be very like Harry Potter I think - there are plenty of fics that still have characters who died in Books 5 onward. The ship wars and wank bother me far more than anything RTD can do or has done because we do it to each other. I've stopped watching most of the Comms because of it. RL is hard enough without seeing people tear themselves and each other up over something that is supposed to be fun.

As for the Whoverse on screen ... well ... I'm playing wait and see. I've always been more of a JB, GDL and DT fan than a fan of the shows. Perhaps they will do something I enjoy (I for one would watch a Jack travelling the universe series but not a Gwen runs TW series - not because I dislike Eve but because the character does not interest me) If they don't do something I enjoy, there are plenty of fanfic writers who do. Frankly, I've always read more than I watch TV/see movies anyway.

As long as people - be it a half dozen or a hundred - are reading - I will write.

I'll be there, queuing to read it.

I've always been more of a JB, GDL and DT fan than a fan of the shows.

Me too :)

I agree the character of Jack has never meant much to RTD - he didn't create him after all. Moffat did. I think he resents the hell out of the fact that Jack is more popular than characters he did create (Rose, Gwen, etc). I can't also help but wonder if JB being so comfortable in his own skin isn't another factor.

I think there's a lot of truth to both these things. At the time of CoE I read in one of the forums (I think it was Television Without Pity) that the reason he was destroying Ianto's character as well as killing him off, was that he resented how close GDL and JB had become. Although this person is supposedly working at the BBC and was sort of vouched for by some other posters, I dismissed it at the time because, you know, people like to think that there's more personal shit going on in a set that there usually is. But after watching this I do wonder. There's something odd about a gay man who holds same sex relationships so obviously less valuable and important than heterosexual ones.

And as long as you're writing, I'm reading!

Edited 2010-01-02 09:55 pm (UTC)

I'm not even sure RTD knows why he treats and mistreats Jack the way he does ... again I think he'd have to be a lot more introspective than I give him credit for.

For me at least, DT's finale had the same impact COE did - massive plot bunny.

I started thinking why the Doctor has always dismissed Jack and when that started ... when he decided he was expendable and Rose was not on Satellite Five... well what if he hadn't and therby had not abadonned Jack... and off we go.

Anyone have bunny repellant??

Heere bunny, bunny, bunny... I have chocolate and carrots for you to grow strong... :D (Oh crap, I'm having an idea too!)

Jumping in late, when Jack first showed up and started flirting with Rose, I saw the Doctor's reaction of pure jealousy. Rose had to look up to him with bright shining eyes, not Jack.

And Jack's reaction to the Doctor at the very end, his expression didn't change at all when he saw the Doctor. It's like, the Doctor didn't matter to Jack anymore. Jack gave up everything and the Doctor expects him to jump when he shows up. Well, not anymore. Each time before, Jack jumped, smiled and accepted the treatment from the Doctor. This time, nothing and the Doctor didn't have enough guts to go up to Jack. Anything that the Doctor could have offered to Jack would have meant nothing but maybe somebody else could.

In my brain, I'm seeing at least 100 years since Jack is living the slow life and not time-traveling. Alonso looks like he just survived the Titanic and he was taken back to his time frame.

I liked Alonso but I see him more as a friend than a love interest for Jack. I've only seen the scene once and need to find it on youtube to hear what was actually said. It was Jack flirting comments but he didn't seem be be flirting.

I agree with you to some extent. Barrowman played it just right. A little confused, a little wary, a little I think I've forgotten how to go about this. But I don't think it meant the Doctor didn't mean anything to Jack; the salute told us exactly how much he still does. But Jack always seems to forgive the Doctor and that's kind of endearing IMO.

The problem was that I didn't get any sense of time passing, and it would have been so easy to do: take Jack out of uniform and back into a leather jacket; have the Doctor walk up to him and say you can't do this anymore, it's been years and you need to move on. ANYTHING. I didn't get that. I'm glad you did, and as always, in looking at these things, mileage varies.

I like Alonso and I think he would be a perfect boyfriend for Jack if it turns out that it happens; I just didn't like the way it was done. You don't forget someone you love in a few months and "move on". Especially someone who died because you fucked up, or at least that is how you see it.

I found the clip and re-watched the scene. I forgot or missed the salute to the Doctor. The Doctor does mean something to Jack.

I think keeping Jack in the RAF coat was a bit of laziness on the writer's part. 'If we keep Jack in the coat, viewers will recognize him faster. If we put Jack in a leather jacket, viewers might not recognize him' Or if you wanted to give them credit for over-thinking, keeping Jack in the coat will show viewers that Jack hasn't moved on but now that Alonso is here, Jack will be able to move on and get rid of the coat.

I'm over-thinking this bit way too much. *grins*

Probably we all are! Honestly, I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter. Whether deliberate meanness on RTD's part or lazyness it doesn't matter at all. My Ianto is still mine and so is my Jack, and in my world CoE and EoT never happened. Or if they did, things turned out a whole lot different.

LOL! My world, Owen and Tosh never died and COE means Chocolate over Everything. *grins*

that the reason he was destroying Ianto's character as well as killing him off, was that he resented how close GDL and JB had become.
I would believe it. He seems like a very petty man; his 'if you don't like CoE you don't know what real drama is (and need to get a real life) and can just watch something else' comments is an example of that.