End of Tennant, Pt 2 (There are spoilers here!)

[merucha]

This is a very personal rant. You don't have to read it!

I have not seen the "official" episode yet (BBCAmerica shows it tonight) but I have seen enough to know that, as usual, it will leave a bitter aftertaste. The Jack part of the "goodbye" could not have been more dismissive and contemptous if RTD had thought it out for a month of Sundays. So the Doctor breaks all sort of rules in order to say goodbye to his Companions (not crossing your own timeline, anyone?), but all he can do for Jack is to find him a new fucktoy?

Look. In spite of some of the things I write, I am far beyond the age of stupid romanticism. I understand that an immortal man with an mortal lover will at some point move on -- it doesn't make sense for him not to unless he's a walking nervous breakdown for all eternity. But the way it was done in this instance made me realize that for RTD (and by extension, the Doctor) Jack was a throwaway person. The Companion that sacrificed the most for the Doctor is treated like crap.

All RTD had to do was simply have the Doctor walk up to Jack at the bar and say "you have been doing this for too long, Jack. It's time to live again." It would have given me the impression that Jack had actually grieved for his losses and that the Doctor respected that. Instead you get the implication that only a few months have passed, but that the Doctor thinks so little of Jack that he thinks all Jack needs to do to heal is forget about Ianto and his grandson and the betrayal by the Doctor who couldn't be bothered to get off his arse and try to help him, and move on to another pretty face. Hey, fucktoys are exchangeable, right?

Barrowman does the best he can, bless him. The look of confusion and the tentative way he starts to flirt -- almost like, all right, practice run here, what am I doing? makes me think he understood how bad it could be perceived. But it can't salvage the scene.

I have seen some comments about how wonderful it is that Jack has moved on, and I fully expect to be seeing Jack/Alonso fiction soon. In fact, I think most of the fandom will move on, leaving a small group of dedicated Jack/Ianto fans behind. And I suppose it's the nature of the beast, and it's all right. As for me, well, I write these stories for myself, and whoever wants to read them.

Because, to paraphrase Ianto in CoE, for me, it was never about two men. It was about Jack and Ianto. It was about them. It's always about them.

The sad part is that I'm afraid to watch the next DW. I'm afraid of wanting too much or maybe that it will be too different and too strange. All the characters I know and loved are gone. There will be no continuity. There can't be, not after this. The Who Universe that had dragged me back into fandom after twenty years is gone. I will watch Doctor Who, and will find many things to love about it, but at bottom it will be a melancholy exercise.

And Doctor Who had always been about joy and adventure before.

Comments

[luvinthe88and20.livejournal.com]

You summed up a lot of what I am thinking.

[merucha.livejournal.com]

It's rather sad and confusing at the moment...

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'And Doctor Who had always been about joy and adventure before.'
You know, I said the same thing about CoE. TW used to be fun, but not so much after they turned it into serous drama.

'The Jack part of the 'goodbye' could not have been more dismissive and contemptous if RTD had thought it out for a month of Sundays. So the Doctor breaks all sort of rules in order to say goodbye to his Companions (not crossing your own timeline, anyone?), but all he can do for Jack is to find him a new fucktoy? But the way it was done in this instance made me realize that for RTD (and by extension, the Doctor) Jack was a throwaway person. The Companion that sacrificed the most for the Doctor is treated like crap.'
I know. It was a real slap in the face. I can understand them not wanting to confuse the kiddies by not mentioning CoE but come on! I think what it really boils down to is that TW!Jack never really meant that much to RTD (he was only a way to get TW made in the first place).

[merucha.livejournal.com]

what it really boils down to is that TW!Jack never really meant that much to RTD (he was only a way to get TW made in the first place).

I have a feeling you're right.

[cen-sceal.livejournal.com]

There's so much here that I completely agree with, and expressed so well. I do feel that these goodbyes are completely dismissive of both Donna and Jack and the sacrifices that they've made over the last few seasons. It says much more about RTD than anything else, if he thinks that you can get over that amount of grief with a bar pick up or a quick win on the lotto.

I feel that JB made the best of the bad lot he was handed, but I'd imagine he was not impressed with the outcome for Jack's character.

I'm also disillusioned in the wake of this & COE, and I do think it's a shame that they've managed to taint so many peoples' enjoyment of a potentially amazing universe. It's sad that one person who has the power to crush so much enjoyment.

All I can say, is at least fanfic will bring some smiles.

[merucha.livejournal.com]

Yes. I am retreating into fanfic and to hell with it.

[nightporters.livejournal.com]

I've not seen it and tbh, probably won't unless the kids make me. But you got me thinking. Pre RTD DW was a different animal and quite often there was a lot of pathos mixed in amongst the fantasy. The Doctor caused many more problems than he solved I thought. Is it so different here?

[merucha.livejournal.com]

The difference is that at no time before was the Doctor contemptuous AND contemptible. The Doctor is a storm petrel, and he sometimes acts high-handedly towards his Companions because he thinks he knows best. BUT he never has shown so little interest and carelessness towards one of them.

I think Teach (comment below) is right: RTD didn't think of how it worked in the broader DW/TW setting OR he just didn't give a damn. I will add that I think he went out to give a sort of "fuck you" to the fans who didn't fall in with his plan for us to fall madly in love with Gwen. But the way it read to me was "Jack's lover and grandson have been dead only a few months but Jack is the sort of shallow man that he will forget everything for a pretty fuckable toy." After the pain Jack suffers at the end of CoE, which is visible to all who watch, the Doctor's reaction is... contemptible (I'm not very good at finding words about this yet).

All it would have taken to do it right was a couple of lines of dialogue.

[rox712.livejournal.com]

What a perfect way to say it.

I felt that they had no respect at all for Jack. He did so much for ten and was always willing to forgive him, even now if the salute is an indication, and ten gives him the name of a friend? That hurt, to tell you the truth.

[merucha.livejournal.com]

It was needlessly cruel and stupid. A contemptible act...

[teachwriteslash.livejournal.com]

Well said ...

I've always thought JB did as much with the crap given him many times as is humanly possible ... he really doesn't get the chops for that as an actor that he should.

I felt most here for DT - he really deserved a more fitting send off for his brilliant Doctor.

I do tend to think seeing the bar scene as a calculated dismissal gives a certain man too much credit. For one, it was written and filmed before COE aired (and I don't think RTD has the perceptive ability to understand how intensely people would react to that - JB knew I believe). For another, you would have to assume RTD actually thought about what he was doing.

The thing about RTD is he is a lazy writer ... prolific and successful does not equate to not lazy. I doubt he "thought" much about those goodbyes at all (He had a list, he had an idea, he wrote the scene, and he crossed it off the list). He probably never asked himself "how does that work for continuity, perception, etc." That takes introspection and revision. I don't think he worries much about either.

Look at Martha and Mickey. She was engaged before she met Mickey. How did they get there? I'm sure its a compelling story - or could be. May be (oh fuck - down bunnies). He had two characters he needed to deal with so he did in one swoop - easily crossing them off the list. He crossed Jack off, too.

I agree the character of Jack has never meant much to RTD - he didn't create him after all. Moffat did. I think he resents the hell out of the fact that Jack is more popular than characters he did create (Rose, Gwen, etc). I can't also help but wonder if JB being so comfortable in his own skin isn't another factor. That may be why he tortures him gratuitously and tried to make fans hate him by the end of COE. RTD in contrast seems so unhappy with who he is. He would have to be to find things like he does on screne entertaining. To turn a phrase, he really isn't bigger on the inside. The more I learn about him, the sadder it makes me for him.

As for Jack moving on - all for it. I like that our current final image of Jack is not that broken man at the end of COE - that gutted me almost as much as the loss of Ianto (I can't watch either of those scenes). I want to see that character around for a long time - maybe in the hands of someone who will develop the massive/untapped potential that is Jack Harkness.

I will continue to write Jack/Ianto because its not simply about two men as you say - its about these two men. There are other male/male pairings I can't handle and others I love - just like there are het and f/f pairings I both love and hate.

As long as people - be it a half dozen or a hundred - are reading - I will write.

The fandom will do what it will do. The key is going to be for everyone to respect each other - writing J/A fic is no more wrong than J/I fic. It's going to be very like Harry Potter I think - there are plenty of fics that still have characters who died in Books 5 onward. The ship wars and wank bother me far more than anything RTD can do or has done because we do it to each other. I've stopped watching most of the Comms because of it. RL is hard enough without seeing people tear themselves and each other up over something that is supposed to be fun.

As for the Whoverse on screen ... well ... I'm playing wait and see. I've always been more of a JB, GDL and DT fan than a fan of the shows. Perhaps they will do something I enjoy (I for one would watch a Jack travelling the universe series but not a Gwen runs TW series - not because I dislike Eve but because the character does not interest me) If they don't do something I enjoy, there are plenty of fanfic writers who do. Frankly, I've always read more than I watch TV/see movies anyway.

[choccy-grl.livejournal.com]

As long as people - be it a half dozen or a hundred - are reading - I will write.

I'll be there, queuing to read it.

I've always been more of a JB, GDL and DT fan than a fan of the shows.

Me too :)

[merucha.livejournal.com]

I agree the character of Jack has never meant much to RTD - he didn't create him after all. Moffat did. I think he resents the hell out of the fact that Jack is more popular than characters he did create (Rose, Gwen, etc). I can't also help but wonder if JB being so comfortable in his own skin isn't another factor.

I think there's a lot of truth to both these things. At the time of CoE I read in one of the forums (I think it was Television Without Pity) that the reason he was destroying Ianto's character as well as killing him off, was that he resented how close GDL and JB had become. Although this person is supposedly working at the BBC and was sort of vouched for by some other posters, I dismissed it at the time because, you know, people like to think that there's more personal shit going on in a set that there usually is. But after watching this I do wonder. There's something odd about a gay man who holds same sex relationships so obviously less valuable and important than heterosexual ones.

And as long as you're writing, I'm reading!

[samstjames.livejournal.com]

Oi, although I'm not writing Jack/Ianto fanfic myself (at least not as a main plot) I find this ending (So the Doctor breaks all sort of rules in order to say goodbye to his Companions [...], but all he can do for Jack is to find him a new fucktoy?) kind of wrong.
But I haven't seen EoT yet myself (I mean, it would also depend on the rest of the scene to really judge it, I suppose) - and maybe I won't anytime soon, because well... Doctor Who's not airing around here anymore (that is, as far as I know) and I'm mainly a TW fan anyway... - but I already read about that in the "den of geek" review of the episode and thought that it was a bit strange and a little out of place.

[merucha.livejournal.com]

I'll wait until you see it and you tell me... as I've said, all it would have taken was a couple of lines of dialogue and it would have been perfect. But no. It was a throwaway.

[beth-mccombs.livejournal.com]

I debated commenting... mostly because you already know what I think of End of Time and also because my mental editor created by years in the e-publishing world just keeps screaming at me. I want to bitch, rant, and moan about the episode, but it would take away from time better spent elsewhere, like writing.

We write... more for ourselves than others... if we're lucky enough that people like what we right, then we've done something right. I guess that should be enough...

But when it comes down to it, I've spent all morning with a single quote in my head, from Hamlet, The rest is silence. Maybe someone's trying to tell me something.

[merucha.livejournal.com]

Why should it be silence? There's space for so much to be done with the characters... And I like the idea of RTD being faced time and time again with the evidence that the characters he threw away are by far the most loved things he had ever done... in spite of all his mouthing off I think it chafes him something fierce.

[choccy-grl.livejournal.com]

Because, to paraphrase Ianto in CoE, for me, it was never about two men. It was about Jack and Ianto. It was about them. It's always about them.

You took the words right out of my mouth - so I will continue to write only J/I and by extention only read J/I (with maybe a bit of ten thrown in) and that includes your stuff for as long as you write it.

To joy and adventure... and Jack and Ianto.

[merucha.livejournal.com]

Yes! To joy and adventure.... and Jack and Ianto.

[madaboutms.livejournal.com]

I was a bit underwhelmed by the whole thing. I kept waiting for somthing spectacular to happen. There were some clever moments and as much as I dislike John Simm I thought he was great. Now I havce to say that I adored Wilf, always have, and was so happy he got to be a hero. And I did love the whole goodbye scenes with the Doctor and his companions. Mickey and Martha was a bit of a shock.

The only fact that may keep me watching it is the fact that Stephen Moffatt is behind the new season and I have always loved the episodes he's written. After all he wrote the first episodes Captain Jack was in.

I agree too that the CJH scene was dismissive. It felt like a RTD was saying 'oh well, Jack, it's okay, just move on to your next shag.' I was actually quite disturbed but then I resigned myself to the fact that it was further into the future and he was still sad over his losses but still able to enjoy some things in life. That is the inpression I will think about.

Still, the whole thing does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. It seems as if RTD just phoned in the final episodes. DT worked with what he had and made a bad script work as well as he could. I will miss David.

As for fanfic, I will continue to read Jack/Ianto, including yours. These two men have so many stories to tell and I want to hear about them.

[merucha.livejournal.com]

I loved Simm and Wilf -- Wilf is the coolest. And if they had given us some sense of time passing, as I've said, the Doctor going up to Jack and saying "enough of this getting blind drunk it's been years you have to move on Jack do you think this is what Ianto would have wanted for you?" I would have been utterly cool with that. Ianto was mortal and he died (the less said about how the better, but... I would have taken what I could get). But this bloody throwaway scene.... gggggrrrr.

[aeron-lanart.livejournal.com]

I've got used to not being terribly happy with the way Uncle Rusty ends things, so it didn't surprise me.

I am choosing to view Jack's goodbye scene with rose tinted glasses and make the best of it. TBH what was most important to me was that it didn't joss the way *I* dealt with the aftermath of CoE, in fact I might even be able to work it in to my TW/HL AU somehow. Methos would tease poor Alonso something ruthless.

[merucha.livejournal.com]

I think Alonso would fit in your AU really well. Jack has grieved properly, helped by Methos, and it is time to move on, carrying Ianto's memory tucked away somewhere to brought out at special times... I'm cool with it, and I would enjoy reading it. BECAUSE in your AU the relationship meant something!

[adira-tam.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen the show yet, I was looking forward to it..I adore DT, but...I am tired of RTD and the way he views people
maybe I should just go back and rewatch the earlier shows

[merucha.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say don't watch it. There is enough good stuff in it to make it good -- it's just that that particular scene was so... distasteful to me... because it made the Doctor "less than." Barrowman pulls it off for Jack -- he might not be an acting heavyweight, but he knew what to do with it-- but it's still one of those things that make RTD stuff painful to watch at times.

[rednwhiterose.livejournal.com]

Haven't watched EoT yet, I'm still working up the mental fortitude but from what I've gleened here are my thoughts

1) RTD wants to break every last f**king toy he has on his way out the door and then poor gas on them and set them on fire.

2) If I never see/read/hear/see a link to another RTD interview it will be too soon. Teach had some very good points in her comment I think in reference to Jack and how RTD is not comfortable at all with him. I also agree that so long as my fav writers keep writing like they do I shall be content and happy.

3) THANK THE BLOODY LORD ABOVE that Moffat is taking over. His are by far the episodes I love and I wish David had him penning his send off. Moffat would've have done a far better job then any drivel or trash RTD could puke out.

[merucha.livejournal.com]

It wasn't actually as bad as I thought it would be (I have another post up) because the actors did such a fantastic job. And ditto on 2 & 3!

[msp-hacker.livejournal.com]

I seemed to like Jack/Alonso more than most Jack/Ianto shippers, it seems. The difference, it seems, is that I think there was a much longer time span than a few months between now and the post-script of CoE.

I didn't watch the Confidential either. I refuse to let that little, unhappy man's opinion ruin something that I enjoy anymore.

[merucha.livejournal.com]

I didn't dislike it per se, I disliked the way it was done. As I said, I didn't get any sense of time passing. Hell, even a change of clothing for Jack would have signalled distance. I didn't get that. I got "so you got your fuck toy killed here's another one, get over it."

Confidentials? As if.

[minimumstitch.livejournal.com]

I was disappointed in this episode from start to finish. The only redeeming feature was the interactions between Wilf and the Doctor. The scenes between Bernard Cribbins and David Tennant made my cry. David Tennant can do sorrow like no other actor.

RTD seemed to be doing a checklist of everything he wanted to do with the Doctor and as he only had a limited amount of time he decided to put it all into two episodes and to hell with whether any of it actually makes the episodes better. Star Wars homage; check, chase scene; check, evil alien with superpowers; check, return of the timelords; check, someone falling through a domed glass roof and surviving with no incapacitation; check. I'm just surprised he didn't throw in a couple of Daleks and Cyerbmen in at the same time as he seems to love them so much considering the number of times he has used them in the past.

He didn't have any consideration for any characters other than Rose and Wilf. Donna was brushed off with a lame plot where she won't suffer irreprable brain damage if she remembers the Doctor. It's just that it must be the right moment or she won't be able to disable several mad timelords all at once...

As for Jack and the Doctor...The least said about that the better. Considering the amount of damage that Jack has suffered would it be too much to ask for the Doctor to actually speak to him...

Very disappointing. Thank god for Fanfiction!

[merucha.livejournal.com]

I liked it a little better than you did, but I had the checklist feeling too. Cribbins was magnificent; as I said in my other post this was all about the actors. Including Barrowman, bless him.

[rhianona]

here's the thing. One of the aspects of New Who that has frustrated me, especially as we got more seasons, was that RTD and company seemed intent on pulling back companions into the Doctor's orbit at the slightest hint. It's not that I object to that per se - after all, it led to SJA and Elizabeth Sladen is both an awesome old companion and I think it is awesome for her to get her own show - but it gets tiring, especially when it basically forces us to have more Earth-centric episodes, so we can have a reasonable means of getting them (re)involved. So, I'm kind of hoping that the send off we saw is sort of a signal that we're not going to get that anymore. And please gods, no more Rose! Enough already!

Having said that, I didn't actually expect RTD to do any better than he did. He could have done a lot worse and if he were still involved with DW next series, I wouldn't watch. But he's not so I'm hoping it will restore my faith in the show.

[merucha.livejournal.com]

I didn't mind the Companions coming back, but it was sometimes annoying that Rose could always break the rules -- much like Gwen at Torchwood. Rules don't apply to RTD's Mary Sues.

I think we're going to get a whole new game next series. I think RTD has fossicked so much with the story line that Moffatt will want nothing to do with it. Which is a pity, in a sense. Jack was Moffatt's creation, and RTD never gave him the due such a brilliant character deserved.

[jsks.livejournal.com]

you have have said everything i thought and more. to me rtd is like a 3yr old child who destroys his shiny new toys when he is bored of them so no one else may play with them. sigh, i will stay in fanfiction where ianto/tosh/owen live, suzie will be given a chance to more than a excuse to hire gwen. good luck to moffett.

[merucha.livejournal.com]

That's the bottom line for me: Good Luck to Moffett. I want to cleanse RTD's taste out of my mouth.